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Dean Review Consultation Questions

Written submission to Dean review

Submission number: DR-10

Name of individual making submission: DR-10 David Parke

Responses to questions in submission form


Section A - The Public Interest in this Review

1. What do you understand by public interest?

The protection of the public, environment, the consumer, while maintaining consideration of the trades purpose. The concept of restricted skill sets comes from the need to ensure a set skill level and knowledge that is had by the trades­ person to protect the public.


2. Who should the College serve? Who is “the public” in the public interest and what groups make up the public?

The college must serve the interest of all parties, the public is a combination of the consumer, educators, special interest groups that have a legitimate relationship with the trades. Groups/persons who are not members of the trades.


3. How should the College make decisions in the public interest where different segments of the public may have opposing interests?

Where different opinions or opposing views and issues are related to the College and the trades. then experienced subject matter experts from that particular industry should be used to make decisions, offer directions or solutions on matters at hand.


4. Is the College currently protecting the public interest?

The answer to this question is harder to answer, in that we need to exan1ine "protecting the public interest", it can be argued both yes and no. By virtue of having Trade Qualifications, certifications, we have an established level of skill , yet when an alleged violation occurs the water is tmtested as we have yet to censure a tradespersons for wrong doing on a measurable scale.


5. How should the College advance the public interest?

We need to define and set standard of what is public interest and what should or should not fall under the scope of the College of Trades. Trade, Trade associations, labour groups all will have individual opinions of what is public interest and how it should be advanced. I think the college should first deal with issues that currently exist and deal with matters such as; enforcement before venturing into new projects. In the case of Automotive Service Technician the sale of safety related parts being sold to the general public who don't have the specialized training or tools to properly repair these systems places the public at a great risk- the restriction of sale to certificate holders is a concept being discussed.





Section B - Issues Related to Scopes of Practice (SoPs)

6. What impact do SoPs in regulation have on your daily work activities or on the way you conduct business? What aspects of an SoP are important to the work of your trade? Please explain.

The impact of SoPs depends on whether you view them as a "restricted skill", if the SoP i s concerning an area of practice that is or includes a restricted skill set, then the impact is in having to ensure that the person doing the task is qualified. Recruiting, hiring, paying a higher wage, etc add to the cost of business, alternately if the SoP does not include a restricted skill set, I am OK to hire an employee at a lower rate because a CofQ is not required. Because some SoP may not include restricted skill set, it becomes more of a challenge in work assignments in ensuring that we operate inside the legal boundaries. As well, I may operate inside the boundaries of the law, but many shops choose to ignore the rules and while the concept of enforcement is admirable, because of the lack of enforcement for the last 40 years, many shops chose to ignore the rules and operate in a way that maximizes profits. It is important that the SoP is clear in what it includes and a best practice is to ensure that what is in that SoP is not in an SoP for unrestricted trades, or create separate SoPs for those shared actions.


7. Do you agree with the suggestion that trades may have core elements as well as peripheral elements?

Yes, in my trade it was tried before on the educational side of the apprenticeship programs to have a "Common core" of courses. What hurt the process was the lack of flexibility amongst some who did maximize its benefits leading to a return of the older way of in-school eduction/training. Therefore 1 would agree that there are core and peripheral elements to the Motive Power Trades, but it may be best to apply the concept to levels of certitication


8. What should be the key elements of an SoP? In particular, should the SoP for a trade list all of the tasks, activities or functions in which an apprentice should be trained, only those that are unique to the trade, or only those that may pose a risk of harm to the public, tradespeople or other workers on the job? Please explain.

The key to an SoP, should be what separates it from other actions. The wording or definition has to be carefully worded in that if too vague, it becomes open to different views of it's scope, too restrictive it may not allow for technological changes or or hurt industry. it is my opinion that a properly structured SoP would allowa clear understand and provide boundaries.


9. How should a review or change in SoP be carried out?

A review or change should first and most obviously be transparent in that it is open/known to all interested parties, then the scope of practice should be reviewed and revised or constructed by certificate holding subject matter experts. It is fine to allow others to offer opinion, to review and comment on, but to construct a Scope of Practice industry should have the greater voice as they know their industry better than anyone. It also should be remembered that while educators, special interest groups have interest in and may offer great advice, they aren't "living it" everyday, they may have dated or limited understandings of what matters.


10. Can or should the existing SoP provisions support the College’s diverse functions (e.g., apprenticeship training, enforcement, classification reviews)? Please explain.

Yes, the current provisions can continue to support trades. Although this may provide an opportunity to refresh and update many things that help define our trades. It would take an in-depth review of each trade to know if each SoP is accurate or needs to revised. Always remember that many of the compulsory trades where created decades ago and have only under gone minor revisions or had nothing done to their structure. From this we may find that changes in classification, structure or definition may occur.


11. Should the entire SoP for a compulsory trade be enforceable or be subject to enforcement? Please explain.

This is harder to answer, in that if the SoP is too broad, you then need to allow for exemptions, which can create issues and confusion on who can perform that skill set. In a perfect world the SoP would only encompass what is subject to enforcement or what is not. The creation or re-creation of SoP should always have a focus on matching trade needs while looking for opportunity to allow flexibility for change and enforcement.


12. Could the College benefit from a distinct list of compulsory activities that may pose a risk of harm to the public, tradespeople or other workers on the job? Please explain.

This needs further discussion , to me the obvious answer is yes the College would Benefit, but again are we creating an overly complex structure, are we talking a distinct list for all trades? or for within a specific segment such as Motive Power? Broad-based would not work as an electrician maybe used to working on higher voltage is not trained for equipped for the technology of a hybrid vehicle and an Automotive Technician isn't trained to repair the wiring on your house.


13. What is your understanding of what an overlap between SoPs is?

I would assume an overlap is when the same skill/activity is done my two different trades or industries, an example to me would be the diagnosing and servicing of batteries, both Automotive Service Technician and Truck Coach Technicians before this task.


14. Do overlaps between SoPs in regulation have an impact on your daily work or on the way you conduct business? Please explain.

They can present a challenge in that certain trades view an activity is with in their scope of practice even though they don't have the skill set as part of the trades training or definition


15. Does the application of the third legal interpretation principle on overlapping SoPs pose a risk of harm to the public, tradespeople, or other workers on the job? Please explain. If so, what can and should be done about it?

It does present problems, I feel the best way to handle is a review of each.maybe those non-compulsory trades become compulsory? It's a complex problem with no easy answer.





Section C - Classification or Reclassification of Trades as Compulsory or Voluntary

16. What makes a compulsory trade compulsory and what makes a voluntary trade voluntary?

History - What should make be the greatest determining factor? Protection of the public, environment, using Hairstyling as example, it should be compulsory, your handling dyes etc (chemicals) that if not properly used can injure the pubIic, disposal? the protection of the environment.


17. Is the current classification of trades as either compulsory or voluntary aligned with the College’s duty to serve and protect the public interest?

The current classification does serve the public but the number of compulsory is lower than it maybe should be, this is because for many years it was politically unfavorable to implement or change trade classifications. Changing some trades to Compulsory may have positive effect but a study would have to be made one ach trade to fully understand the benefit to that trade.


18. Is it reasonable to assume that there may be elements in the SoP for a trade that are inherently hazardous or that may pose a risk of harm to the public, tradespeople, or other workers on the job?

Yes! in todays world it is most likely some part of it will always present a hazard to the Tradespersons, the Public, and/or the Environment.


19. Could compulsory certification be limited to either the core elements of a trade or those tasks, activities, or functions that may pose a risk of harm to the public, tradespeople or other workers on the job? What kind of impact would these approaches have on your daily work or on the way you conduct business?

Answering the second part of this question first; any change to restricted skill sets will most likely change who can do what repairs and in turn alter work assignments or services eligible to be provided by a business. The idea of core elements for my trade is a concept that I believe is worth investigating. The trade of Automotive Service Technician has only undergone one major change and several rewrites of its occupational analy sis. The major change was in the early nineties when the trade was formally separated from the trade of Truck and Coach ( 31OA (class A mechanic) became 31OS for Automotive Service Technician and 31OT for Truck Coach Technician) the rewrites lead to recreating areas of study for the in-school portion of training and sign-offs, but we still onl y have 24 weeks of formal training the same amount of time as we did in 1970! Vehicles have certainly changed since then. My concept would be to recreate the structure of the trade to match todays SoP/skill sets. I would use a model where the trade has tiers with branches or endorsements to cover those aspects that require specialized skill sets. eg. an Automotive Maintenance Tech who can perform the basic maintenance services. an Automotive Service Tech who performs more in-depth repairs, then having to achieve endorsements for specialized technology such as hybrid, Automatic Transmission, Coli ision A voidance systems.


20. Should the College continue to rely on an adjudicative review panel approach (i.e., the Ontario Labour Relations Board model) or should a different model be considered? Please explain.

I have no experience with the OLRB, but the idea of a review panel in such form may be best to handle the challenges of adapting trades to the 21st century.


21. How should expert opinion be obtained?

The selection of the input from Subject Matter Experts should not be left solely to the OCoT, to ensure a fair and unbiased input is give SMEs from the public should be also allowed equal participation. As well the SMEs on the committee should all be C ofQ holders in good standing in that particular trade/industry , working in the trade, and not representatives of support agencies, as example a C of Q holder employed by a car dealer (Manager, Foreman, Technician) would be acceptable as they handle the vehicles everyday. A person employed by the vehicle manufacturer would NOT be acceptable as they are receiving there information second hand through their dealers.


22. Are the current criteria for trade classification reviews set out in O. Reg. 458/11 consistent with the public interest? Please explain.

As mentioned in item 19, because of the long history of trade certification in Ontario and the fact hat many have not been closely examined as to structure or their structure has been determined by the National Occupational Analysis NOA, it would only be fair to review all trades to ensure the classifications are still accurate and consistent with protecting the public.


23. Are the criteria specific, clear and measurable enough to inform you of what data and evidence are needed to meet those criteria?

I don't think the issue is criteria as much as political, if enough people want it to happen it will, if enough oppose it won't.


24. Are the existing criteria the right criteria?

Respondent did not provide a response to this question





Section D - Decisions of the Ontario Labour Relations Board (OLRB)

25. Do the scopes of practice (SoPs) in regulation reflect the way in which work is actually assigned in your trade or sector?

No, there are times when the SoP do not reflect the reality of vehicle service.


26. Do you agree with the notion that most jurisdictional disputes arise from peripheral elements of the trades? Please explain.

Most disputes probably relate more to the peripheral, I am only aware of an issue when non-qualified (non-CofQ holders) where installing remote start systems on vehicles that lead to the creation of the trade of Automotive Accessory Installer. In motive power it has not been a problem, occasional concerns is expressed about one part of the trade has an issue with another doing work they believe it is theirs.


27. What consideration should the College give, if any, to the decisions made by the OLRB in jurisdictional or work assignment disputes under the Labour Relations Act? If the College were to adopt the OLRB's decisions, what impact would that have on your trade and the way you conduct business? Please explain.

The College needs to decide if it is accepts the decisions of the OLRB or not, as to impact we would need to know what the decision is. Without this it is impossible to answer this question.





Section E - General Response and Comments

28. Please provide additional comments below, if any.

Having a "trade" a certification can bring both a positive and negative, positive is as a society we have formally trained skilled labour, which can mean an increase in wages, unfortunately it doesn't always translate to quality, partially due to enforcement issues and the "newness" of enforcement it will take time to see the benefits. If OCoT is in for the long haul it must be reactive, timely and aware of how the TRADE sees things