Dean Review Consultation Questions

Written submission to Dean review

Submission number: DR-4

Name of individual making submission: DR-4 Del Boudreau

Responses to questions in submission form

Section A - The Public Interest in this Review

1. What do you understand by public interest?

Public interest can be defined as the expectations held by an individual or group, which can be measured by the Values of said Public .

2. Who should the College serve? Who is “the public” in the public interest and what groups make up the public?

Ultimately all the services that the College provides should be geared towards the betterment of and the compliance to Standards. All peoples are the public.

3. How should the College make decisions in the public interest where different segments of the public may have opposing interests?

If it can be shown that a decision made in the public interest negatively impacts a segment of the public which has an apposing view I believe that that would need to be weighed against the benefits.

4. Is the College currently protecting the public interest?

Yes it is trying. Early days and much to be done.

5. How should the College advance the public interest?

The College needs to be less "Torontocentric" and should establish forums throughout Ontario for the exchange of information,comments and concerns from the Public and industry stakeholders. The General public has no idea what the College is or what it represents.

Section B - Issues Related to Scopes of Practice (SoPs)

6. What impact do SoPs in regulation have on your daily work activities or on the way you conduct business? What aspects of an SoP are important to the work of your trade? Please explain.

The current S.O.P. are inadequate.

7. Do you agree with the suggestion that trades may have core elements as well as peripheral elements?


8. What should be the key elements of an SoP? In particular, should the SoP for a trade list all of the tasks, activities or functions in which an apprentice should be trained, only those that are unique to the trade, or only those that may pose a risk of harm to the public, tradespeople or other workers on the job? Please explain.

I don't believe that the current S.O.P. (General Carpenter) is to be referred to as the "title of ownership" over work, and obviously was not designed to be the basis of a Claim of work, Complaint , or Compliance . The scope of "practice" should define what you do and what is expected of you to be able to do, to meet not only codes but also should should include best practices. ie: installing baseboard as door casing is not against code but it is not best practice.

9. How should a review or change in SoP be carried out?

Adopt the Red Seal National Occupational Annalise (N.O.A) Ontario submission.

10. Can or should the existing SoP provisions support the College’s diverse functions (e.g., apprenticeship training, enforcement, classification reviews)? Please explain.

No, the General Carpenter S.O.P contains largely Ambiguous, Broad references . The N.O.A.(Ontario Submission) is the reference which our curriculum and the Red Seal exam is based on and therefore should be the guide.

11. Should the entire SoP for a compulsory trade be enforceable or be subject to enforcement? Please explain.

Yes, with the exception of overlapping trades which provide the same level of training and Red Seal Certification.

12. Could the College benefit from a distinct list of compulsory activities that may pose a risk of harm to the public, tradespeople or other workers on the job? Please explain.

Yes, for example: All structural elements permanently or temporary built,installed or reworked should be restricted by regulation.

13. What is your understanding of what an overlap between SoPs is?

Today for a General Carpenter ,as written , it means nothing.

14. Do overlaps between SoPs in regulation have an impact on your daily work or on the way you conduct business? Please explain.

As for General Carpentry, I do not need to refer to the SoPs to know who's job is what, I have always declined work assigned to me which should be done by a certified Tradespersons in other Trades but have had to fight continually to protect my own.

15. Does the application of the third legal interpretation principle on overlapping SoPs pose a risk of harm to the public, tradespeople, or other workers on the job? Please explain. If so, what can and should be done about it?

It Could. If a complaint is made regarding someone working in a voluntary Trade (who is not a member of the college by choice) and the problem stems from that work which overlaps with a Compulsory Trade (who's membership is required by the College) then because they are allowed by the interpretation, and are not obligated to be a member, the Colleges hands are tied from helping.

Section C - Classification or Reclassification of Trades as Compulsory or Voluntary

16. What makes a compulsory trade compulsory and what makes a voluntary trade voluntary?

A Compulsory Trade is the work which is to be preformed by a worker who has demonstrated(by examination) the knowledge required to the applicable Standard of that trade and holds a valid C of Q. A Voluntary Trade may have a Standard and exam but obtaining a C of Q is optional. Anyone can work in the Trade to the variable standards set by the Owner. Traditional Apprenticeship Training,Ratios or Rates of pay do not need to be followed.

17. Is the current classification of trades as either compulsory or voluntary aligned with the College’s duty to serve and protect the public interest?

No, The Trade of General Carpenter must be reclassified as Compulsory, that action will align the College to its mandate. Much more work should be done to show the value of Compulsory Certification.

18. Is it reasonable to assume that there may be elements in the SoP for a trade that are inherently hazardous or that may pose a risk of harm to the public, tradespeople, or other workers on the job?

Yes,Almost all elements of SoPs of Trades contain some level of potential danger.

19. Could compulsory certification be limited to either the core elements of a trade or those tasks, activities, or functions that may pose a risk of harm to the public, tradespeople or other workers on the job? What kind of impact would these approaches have on your daily work or on the way you conduct business?

Perhaps, but I don't believe that only some people should benefit by Training and Certification some of the time,but that everyone should be trained to a standard and that they prove their competency by successfully passing an examination.

20. Should the College continue to rely on an adjudicative review panel approach (i.e., the Ontario Labour Relations Board model) or should a different model be considered? Please explain.

The O.L.R.B. model should continue and should focus on its mandate within the current structure.

21. How should expert opinion be obtained?

The College has within its membership, Governing body and staff and a vast collection of experience and knowledge. I Trust that looking for expert opinions within the College would be acceptable.

22. Are the current criteria for trade classification reviews set out in O. Reg. 458/11 consistent with the public interest? Please explain.

Yes, I think the criteria is reasonable.

23. Are the criteria specific, clear and measurable enough to inform you of what data and evidence are needed to meet those criteria?


24. Are the existing criteria the right criteria?


Section D - Decisions of the Ontario Labour Relations Board (OLRB)

25. Do the scopes of practice (SoPs) in regulation reflect the way in which work is actually assigned in your trade or sector?

Not always. Small example: Two electricians from London where building 10 concrete forms for light standard bases so I had to ask "why are you doing this"? They told me "because we can". I told them their forms would blow apart from the weight of the concrete, which they did. So just because "you can" doesn't mean you should.

26. Do you agree with the notion that most jurisdictional disputes arise from peripheral elements of the trades? Please explain.

Most J.D' s are resolved before reaching the Board and are usually caused by low level management mis-assigning work. Each Board area as defined by the M.O.L may have different Area Work Practices regarding peripheral elements of a Trade.

27. What consideration should the College give, if any, to the decisions made by the OLRB in jurisdictional or work assignment disputes under the Labour Relations Act? If the College were to adopt the OLRB's decisions, what impact would that have on your trade and the way you conduct business? Please explain.

I do not know what would Trump what or how parallel worlds exist. My guess is that the College would have to adopt the O.L.R.B. decisions and that their decisions would reflect any adjustments made by the college going forward.

Section E - General Response and Comments

28. Please provide additional comments below, if any.

Respondent did not provide a response to this question